For this post, I can give you the tl;dr here in the foreword. Back in 2009 my Smith line was yDNA matched to the Butler line of the Earls of Carrick in the Peerage of Ireland.

This Butler line carries the modern variant of the yDNA of Rollo and they have the paper trail and other provenance to support this, including autosomal DNA matching (which, for privacy reasons, has not been published) that supports their paper trail pedigree. Before his passing, I communicated, however infrequently, with my match via e-mail for a number of years, and later with his sons. His family has granted me written permission to discuss their larger Butler family story within the context of my research.

This Butler line is patrilineally descended from Hervey Walteri, the progenitor of the Butler Dynasty and a patrilineal descendant of the original Dukes of Normandy. They are agnates of William the Conqueror, Henry I, and William Adelin who died as a result of The White Ship Disaster.

Most notably, the pedigree for my group’s match has been publicly published by Prince William, Duke of Cambridge and this family tree information is managed, online, by a documented cousin family of my match’s family.

I’m wanting to avoid a big build up of drama or suspense in the release of this information, that the yDNA of Rollo has been partially sequenced, because there are other items that I wish to address.

First, I believe the 12 marker sequence and values are Intellectual Property of FamilyTreeDNA. That said, I can not wholly approve of how FTDNA manages their public volunteer led projects. They get a strong 5/10 from me in this regard. I do find, however, that their yDNA testing is the most precise among the available genetic genealogy companies.

Second, I believe I may be the first to accurately publish on this subject. Please use what information I provide here respectfully, responsibly, and honestly.

Currently published research

There appear to be many online discussion groups that have explored this subject of the yDNA of the original Dukes of Normandy and I wish to present my information here, on my public blog, so that these groups can correct or refine what they have publicly published. At the very least, I hope I may elicit the finale of the seemingly endless speculation on this topic that is abundant on the internet.

For notes, none of the following projects, researchers, or groups have ever contacted myself nor my yDNA match (to my knowledge) for information pertaining to their research.

It should be very clearly understood that I, Christopher Smith, the author of this blog, do not necessarily support or echo any of the published statements or conclusions found in the following publications. I present them at face value, as sites that have engaged in some form of research pertaining to the yDNA of the House of Normandy, as it pertains to the original Dukes of Normandy.

Further, this is not a comprehensive list and I will add to it as I refine my Google search results.

International research efforts

I have a deep love and respect for academia and credible educators. I would have loved to have been a part of the following research effort. This first article was the most credible effort that I came across to really study the question of the yDNA of Rollo. It is the most interesting as it involved an inter-governmental and collaborative academic research effort between France, Norway, and Denmark.

I will note that this research effort was ultimately ruled fruitless due to 1) the age of the bones identified in the sarcophagi and 2) the amount of lead said sarcophagi contained. No useable DNA was recovered from these efforts and, after the bones were examined, it was determined that there was very little likelihood that they belonged to kinsmen of Rollo.

Further, I have identified the following projects as having published possibly incorrect or misleading information about the yDNA of the House of Normandy, specifically that of Rollo’s and the Dukes’. This story was re-posted on a number of sites/blogs and, for tidiness, I will not repeat them here.

Group “Rollo” at FamilyTreeDNA

The St. John Genealogy Project

For this St. John Genealogy page, I can assure them that they have the yDNA marker values wrong.

They are: 13 24 15 11 11 14 12 12 11 13 13 28. These are the 12 markers of my Smith group, the same ones that match my Smith line to the Butlers.

Origin Hunters

The King’s Son

It must be made very clear that I have not evaluated the claims of this site’s author and do not wish to discuss the subject matter they have published outside of the scope of the yDNA of the House of Normandy. I also am not wishing to advertise for or support the services they offer. We have no affiliation.

I believe I must disagree with their findings that the yDNA of the House of Normandy was, in modern terms, FGC5494. That said, I do believe they are the closest yet to accurately identifying the yDNA branch of the larger yDNA haplogroup tree (a subclade of DF13).

I will cite my own yDNA information and research as evidence. I am open to critique and peer review. From my group’s WikiTree project page:

Our Smith group is proven to be R-CTS2501 (aka but != R-DF41) a subgroup of R-DF13, R-L21, R-S461, R-P312, R-L151, R-PF6538, R-L52, R-L51, R-L23, R-M269. Further, BigY testing has grouped two of our autosomally distant Smith yDNA populations into R-FTB93197. This FTDNA specific haplogroup was created on 6 Sep 2015. To my knowledge, my blog and my group’s WikiTree project are the only online sources that properly and thoroughly explore from where this yDNA haplogroup originates.

Smiths, Butlers, and the Dukes

If you’ve made it this far, you probably have a lot of questions, and I appreciate that. I will direct you again to my Smith group’s Wikitree project page. Most of what you will be asking will be addressed there. You will also likely benefit from a reading of Countering “The Great Carrington Imposture” (as well as other postings in this blog which you are currently reading). Admittedly I have not thoroughly completed my analysis and critique of Round’s efforts as I was at the limit of my understanding of the subject matter when I completed the first part, and quality sources for much of the older subject matter is outside of my reach. I have since spent the majority of my time exploring why, when my family had never had stories of such things passed down, our Smith yDNA is being linked to the House of Normandy.

My uncle once told me of a short conversation he had with my grandfather. He said he had asked him “Who were the old Smiths?” to which my grandfather answered “Why should it matter?”. I very much agree with this sentiment, but also believe that if one has the ability to preserve history, real history, one is obligated to do so. I am likely the first of my family (immediate or otherwise) with the technical and academic skills and resources (time, namely) to properly explore our earlier American story (I will later post about a research effort by my cousins in Indiana). I was not expecting to be able to find English origins for our Smiths, but it is something I felt I have had to stringently explore, with discipline, since the information has placed itself in my lap.

The current hypothesis is that my group’s Smith line is descended from the Smiths of Blackmore (Essex, England) who settled along the south bank of the James River in Virginia in the 1620’s. (To sort out a lot of the confusion about this Smith family, please read this WikiTree Project page.) These Smith men were patrilineal descendants of the Smiths of Rivenhall (Essex, England) and they, in turn, were patrilineal descendants of John Carrington, Esq. of Chester who in 1403 changed his name to John Smith, Esq. as a result of his involvement in the Epiphany Rising Plot against Henry IV.

The Carringtons of Chester, as it is well documented (despite Round’s objections) were said to have been patrilineal descendants of Sir Michael of Carrington in Chester (Cheshire). Sir Michael’s paper trail traces his male line lineage back to an Adae of Carrington, heir to a Hamo of Carrington who, according to M. Lionel Angus Butterworth, was a kinsman to William the Conqueror. Hamo was said to have been a son of a Marquis of Carentan in Normandy, France.

Note: This evening, 6/8/22 at around 11:30PM ET, I found this blurb in “The Carrington Imposture” by John Horace Round (Peerage and Pedigree, Vol II, pg. 157):

“We read further, under Adam de Carington, that The Manor of Carington being only four miles from Warrington, tradition favours the belief that Hubert Walter recommended Michael de Carington to the notice of the lion-hearted Richard, which led to his appointment as Standard Bearer to the King.”

I believe Round is citing Dr. Copinger, but from where Copinger gets his information, I do not know.

There is also a socio-political affinity between the Smiths, Carringtons, and Butlers that can be found among the records of the family of George Booth who married Jane Carrington, last heir to the Carrington estate. It can be demonstrated through documented marriages and legal cases that all of these families intermarried.

For reference, here are the ancestral homes of Hamo of Carentan and the Butlers.

Closing

There is A LOT of information that has been published online about these families and lineages, and the quality of the content of many of these earlier authors, even those of the late 20th century, leaves much to be desired. However, I believe this current blog posting is the first to accurately identify yDNA of the male line of original Dukes of Normandy.

Thank you for your time.

Some time ago, I was autosomally matched with a number of folks who all appeared to share significant amount of DNA with my dad and his 3rd cousin on Cr3 and Cr7.

After an initial research effort, it was determined that all A722601, A720645, and T245759 descended from Clement Whitaker Purcell who married Julia Ann Smith Aug 6 1832 in Lawrence Co, IN. This has since become an anchor population for my Salt Creeker Smiths when doing autosomal comparisons.

If my memory serves me correctly, based on my prior research, Clement and Julia were married by a David Beck.

For notes, Isaac Smith, Sr. was in Jackson Co, IN by 1820:

2 sons, b. between 1820 and 1810

1 son b. between 1810 and 1804

1 man b. between 1794 and 1775 (Isaac Smith, Sr.)

2 daughters, b. between 1820 and 1810

1 daughter, b. between 1804 and 1794

1 woman, b. between 1794 and 1775 (Nancy Hendricks b. 1793).

It should be noted that Samuel Rice Smith was born in 1819 in Rockcastle Co, KY, just outside of Mt. Vernon. This suggests that most, if not all of Isaac’s children who were alive in 1820 were born in Kentucky.

In the 1830 Lawrence Co, IN census, we find David Beck 4 houses away from the family of Isaac Smith and Nancy Hendricks.

In the 1840 Jackson Co, IN census, we find Clement and family on pg 28/115 on Ancestry.com:

This entry next to David Waggoner is important because David had a brother Frederick Waggoner who was the boyfriend/fiancee’ (consort) of an Elizabeth Smith who was the sister of Samuel Rice Smith. Futher, an Elizabeth Waggoner, a daughter of George Waggoner, David’s father, was the wife of a William Smith who was a brother to Samuel Rice Smith. This 1840 census record places Clement Purcell and family in immediate temporal, social, and geographic proximity to the family of Isaac Smith and Nancy Hendricks Bridgewater.

In the 1850 Jackson Co, IN census, we find the families of Samuel Rice Smith and Isaac Smith, Sr. on pg 14/28.

Clement and Julia are on pg 12/28 enumerated next to, again, George Waggoner and Elizabeth Phillips.

This being the first census that provides a clear age for Julia, we see she says she was born in 1816 in Kentucky.

In 1860, we find Clement and Julia in the Washington Twp, Putnam Co, IN census. Their neighbors are not all that surprising. Thomas Hill and Lavina Smith, a sister of Samuel Rice Smith.

To supplement this paper trail that shows the long-term temporal, social, and geographic associations of Julia Ann Smith Purcell with the children of Isaac Smith and Nancy Hendricks, I will provide an autosomal analysis of some of Julia’s descendants.

The confusion comes into play when we examine the currently published information about Julia Ann Smith. Most online trees have her as a daughter of a Reuben Smith and Hannah Warford. This association, in my opinion, is only made via the presence of the name “Warford” or “Wolford” in the descendants of Clement Purcell. There is only one problem with this theory: Reuben and Hannah were never in the right places at the right times to be Julia’s parents.

Here is the when/where for Reuben and Hannah:

Found on Ancestry.com, posted by “C_Warner789” on 20 Feb 2013:

The Reuben Smith and Maximilllian Robinson family were members of a covered wagon train that left Shelbyville, Kentucky and ultimately settled in Putnam County, Indiana.  They arrived in Marion township, Putnam Co. on October 6, 1822.  They found the country comparatively unsettled with white people but well inhabited with Indians.  The first few years there were difficult, as it was for all early day settlers.  The family was very religious.  The children were baptized as babies and began receiving religious training early in life.  Joe Warford, Reuben’s brother-in-law, organized the first church in the community, the First Methodist Church.  One of Reuben Smith’s daughters died in April 1821, leaving a small son who was raised by the family.  In 1832, another sister died (Mary Ann Owen) leaving three small children who were also reared by Reuben and his wife.

1830 – Putnam Co, IN

For the 1830 info, we have to ask ourselves, “Why would Julia’s parents be 72 miles to the north while their daughter was still an unwed minor?” This doesn’t make sense.

1840 – Putnam Co, IN
1850 – Floyd Twp, Putnam Co, IN

My alternative hypothesis is that Julia Ann Smith Purcell was a daughter of Isaac Smith and Nancy Hendricks. It is likely not a coincidence that Nancy Hendricks’ mother’s name was Julia Ann Rice (wife of Coonrod Hendricks).

I will present an additional bit of autosomal evidence for this hypothesis.

Let’s examine this segment of DNA shared by A475724 (descendant of Samuel Rice Smith) and A722601 (descendant of Julia Ann Smith Purcell).

Running a matching segment search and then a triangulation report yields the following:

We find among the triangulated matches a “Skip” (A987059) and a “Granddaddy Lantz” (A852771). “Skip” is George Robert Jungerman, Jr. He is a documented descendant of Clement and Julia (same as A722601). A852771 was a new find and a bit of research yielded that this person is a documented descendant of Coonrod Hendricks and Julia Ann Rice, parents of Nancy Hendricks Smith Bridgewater. Additionally, there is a Charles E. Hendrix (NU4969811) that also matches at this location, however I have not confirmed if Charles is a descendant of Coonrod and Julia.

I believe the match between 1) two descendants of Clement and Julia (Skip and Jeanne), 2) a descendant of Samuel Rice Smith (Ray), and 3) a descendant of Coonrod and Julia Rice Hendricks (Lantz) is sufficient to demonstrate that Julia Ann Smith was a descendant of Coonrod Hendricks and Julia Ann Rice, as the above paper trail suggests.

Thanks for reading!

-Chris

Back in September of 2021, I made contact with a Kasey Diane Brooks Brady on Facebook. This was around the same time I was blocked from the SmithsWorldWide Facebook group.

I had posted some of my research to the SmithsWorldWide Facebook group about what had been published by group R-M269-32 pertaining to Josiah Smith of Brunswick Co, VA on their site, and I had included Kasey as her group membership in the project needed to be changed. As she was working only with autosomal DNA, no yDNA match had linked her Smith family to R-M269-32. She had previously been working from some of Quentin and Gaylord Smith’s research, and it was only from their errant published information was she linked to R-M269-32.

My posting to the group demonstrated that two Josiah Smiths that had been linked by Quentin and Gaylord could not have been father and son, and I had supporting evidence (e-mail below is of first discussion about this subject with Gaylord Smith.

Nancy Helena Smith

For the first time, I am publishing my previous work involving known documented descendants of Josiah and Elizabeth and their autosomal connection to descendants of Stephen Smith of Blount Co, AL.

Putting all of this information together, we can see a 2D chromosome browser comparison of all of the kits:

Kasey’s dad’s (Larry Alfred Roland Brooks) kit triangulates on Cr20 with JS9325709 and A755426, known descendants of Josiah and Elizabeth (first identified as part of RS1118028 autosomal analysis).

JS9325709 and A755426 are also valuable in this next step of the analysis.

To preface, by comparing multiple autosomal kits of descendants of Stephen Smith and Nancy Rainwater, I found a segment that was shared by many of them.

A matching segment search yields the following:

It is good that we see A535604 (descendant of William J Smith), A857974, and A791499 (descendant of Henry Alexander Smith) and T905134, A443626 (descendant of John Burton Smith) in this list. This shows that this DNA is closely linked to Isaac Andrew Smith or Rachel Catherine Pennington. For notes, A443626 is both a documented descendant of Josiah and Elizabeth as well as Stephen Smith and Nancy (Harris?) Rainwater of Blount Co, AL. This Stephen Smith line is yDNA established.

Click to see the larger tree:

Available GEDcoms for the above list are:

Their paper trail shows that they are both descendants of Josiah Smith and Elizabeth Collier.

From JS9325709 tree:

From A755426 tree:

We can see that their MRCAs are William Norwood and Susannah Smith, a daughter of Josiah and Elizabeth.

To further see how significant this finding is, here is the 2D autosomal DNA browser view of a yDNA match of mine who descends from Stephen and Nancy Smith compared to Carlton Smith (another yDNA carrier descended from Stephen):

It is very clear to see here that JS9325709 and A755426 share two halves of a segment that is was present in the common ancestors of RS1118028 , A535604, and A857018.

Conclusion

I believe the above information does two things. First, it uses autosomal DNA information to confirm the hypothesis (which was built from will information) that Miles Smith was a descendant of Josiah Smith. Second, it autosomally links descendants of Josiah to descendants of Stephen Smith of Blount Co, AL. This Stephen Smith line is a 67 level match to my Smith line.

We can therefore now build a hypothesis that Josiah Smith was likely a carrier of my Smith group’s yDNA.

A preliminary autosomal investigation into this hypothesis has yielded this:

JB4497364 and A475724 match JB4497364 on the same chromosome, Cr1. It should be clarified that this is significant because John and Ray descend from very distantly related but yDNA matched Smith lines.

Further, the segment from 164.6M to 183.8M has been used to identify other autosomal DNA matches of JB4497364 and A475724 who are descendants of Isaac Smith of Camden, Benton Co, TN (descendant of Shadrack Smith of Wake Co, NC). We therefore consider this a region of interest when looking for possible common Smith ancestries between autosomal matches.

We can further hypothesize that it is a strong likelihood that this autosomal DNA on Cr1 was inherited via common Smith ancestry shared by the involved autosomal matches. Further, because autosomal DNA does not jump around in location on a chromosome, nor does it change chromosomes, we can hypothesize that the segment from 90.4M to 108.7M may be relevant to a common Smith ancestry shared by L.B., JB4497364 and A475724 as the neighboring segment to the right can be demonstrated to be relevant to that ancestry. A larger, more complete segment in their hypothetical common ancestor would bridge the two segments into one.

Ideally, we would like to try to confirm these hypotheses with a yDNA test for a proven and unambiguous descendant of Josiah Smith’s.

I will also note that it is likely not a coincidence that we find one of Josiah’s brothers, Cuthbert Smith, in the story of Henry Smith of Knox and Harlan Co, KY who knew Col. Elisha Smith of Mt. Vernon, Rockcastle Co, KY. Elisha lived very near Ray Smith’s ancestor, Isaac Smith who married Nancy Hendricks. (Isaac was a son of an Andrew Smith who was a son of Robert Smith of St. Matthew’s Parish in old Orange Co, NC).

Cuthbert had a son Stephen Smith (different from Blount Co, AL Stephen) who married an Olive Harrison. Olive Harrison was a daughter of Olive Smith and Nathaniel Harrison. Olive Smith was a daughter of Eads Smith. Eads had another daughter Mary Smith who married Andrew Jeter. Henry Smith enlisted under Andrew Jeter in the Revolutionary War. This was in Fountains Creek, VA.

We do not have a clear paper trail linking Stephen Smith of Blount Co, AL to Josiah’s family. Only DNA has been used for this effort.

I hope this is useful to someone. It has taken many years to get this far and sort out all of the poorly vetted research that has been published thus far.

I have recently noticed that I appear to be receiving some blog views from folks accessing a link in Google Groups. I do appreciate having my work shared and I wish to state that I would be happy to discuss my research with you. Unfortunately, I do not know to which Google Group my blog has been shared. If you have found your way to my blog from Google Groups, please feel free to leave a comment and let me know how you found my page. I’m interested to learn about the interests of my readers.

Edit: You may have been a reader of this thread: https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/qxHgml2xoUw/m/TQ2E0eWqAwAJ

Thank you!

So I have a large number of 12/12 yDNA matches, 68 to be precise.

Let’s look at what a few different places say about the significance of these matches.

FamilyTreeDNA has the TiP Report calculator.

Interestingly, despite the following posting on FTDNA’s official FAQ pages, I’m still given the option to adjust the number of generations for 12/12 matches:

Source: https://learn.familytreedna.com/y-dna-testing/ftdna-tip/ability-add-genealogical-data-doesnt-always-show/

Using the default values, this curve appears like this: I’ve added 25, 37, and 67 level matches as well.

I find it interesting that the numbers suggest that a 37/37 match has a lower probability of having an MRCA within 1-4 generations than a 25/25 match does. I double checked the number the TiP Calculator was giving me to be sure this wasn’t some error I introduced.

There is a field that can be adjusted if it is known that you and a match do not share a common ancestor in a number of generations. However, I’m inferring from the above FAQ note that this shouldn’t be done for yDNA matches who are of a genetic distance of 0?

These numbers begin to look very different.

But this is only FTDNA’s take on TMRCA estimates based on yDNA matching, limited to 24 generations. Let’s look at another source:

Probability distribution of time to MRCA: Y Chromosome markers – Two individuals with 12 exact matches, no mismatches

In looking at the above page, we find the following graph and table:

Method: B. Walsh, 2001. Estimating the time to the MRCA for the Y chromosome or mtDNA for a pair of individuals, Genetics 158: 897–912

Both methods using Standard Mutation Rate:

So this suggests that we enter the 90% confidence interval with a standard (slower?) mutation rate at around 48-53 generations, depending on which calculation model is used.

48 generations is, assuming around 25 years per generation, about 1200 years ago.

53 generations is, assuming around 25 years per generation, about 1325 years ago.

For folks with deep ancestry in England and that neighborhood, this could place, with 90% confidence, their TMRCA with a 12/12 yDNA match at around 300 years before the Norman Conquest, a time well before surnames were in use.

However, I want to show how even these estimates can be misleading.

One of my 63/67 yDNA matches, who has a close cousin who is a 67/67 yDNA match to myself, has done Y Haplogroup and BigY testing at FTDNA. They are shown to be R-DF41. I did an autosomal DNA test with 23andMe and they report my yDNA haplogroup as R-CTS2501. These values are synonymous.

According to yFull.com, R-DF41 aka R-CTS2501 emerged around 4100 years before present (ybp).

What this means is that, if only comparing yDNA haplogroups, if two men match, it can be said they have a TMRCA of around 4100 years ago, using R-DF41 as an example. While not super useful in and of itself, haplogroup matching can be useful for identifying potential yDNA testing candidates. People who autosomally match, are of the same yDNA haplogroup, and also share a surname or a common paper trail narrative make good candidates for further, more precise, 67 level STR testing and comparison.

R-CTS2501 is a subgroup of R-DF13, R-L21, R-S461, R-P312, R-L151, R-PF6538, R-L52, R-L51, R-L23, R-M269

I see one of my 12/12 matches is listed on FTDNA as R-L2. Let’s see where that fits in.

R-L2 is a subgroup of R-U152, R-P312, R-L151, R-PF6538, R-L52, R-L51, R-L23, R-M269

So based on this information that we are both part of R-P312, we can see that our TMRCA is actually waaay back at around 4,800 ybp. Assuming 25 years per generation, is it around 192 generations.

It appears that at least 4 of my 12/12 yDNA matches who are not Smiths are linked to R-P312. The remainder are generically R-M269.

I have also uploaded autosomal DNA kits for 67/67 yDNA matches who have not done yDNA haplogroup testing (and who also do not share any significant amount of autosomal DNA with myself) to the Morely yDNA Haplogroup/Subclade Predictor and found their results to match exactly the above information from FTDNA and 23andMe.

Ok, that’s all for now.

Chris

I’ll be updating my blog pages with changes. I’ve found a few of the hypotheses I posted were incorrect and want to update where I can.

My biggest rule is that just because Smiths lived near each other this does not mean they were related. I’ve not been adhering to this rule as strictly as I should have been.

My immediate neighbor’s last name is Smith and we are not related at all.

Please find our groups WikiTree project at the following link:

FTDNA Group for Smiths ALL R-M269-9
Update: the group name has been changed due to objection from the Smiths ALL Project admin at FTDNA. It is now “DNA Group for Smiths R-M269-9”.

It was never my intent to misrepresent who I was or the nature of this effort I’ve created on WikiTree.

Discussions are ongoing with Family Tree DNA to resolve this now unnecessarily acrimonious dispute with the lead Smiths ALL Project admin. Family Tree DNA has been very helpful.

https://www.wikitree.com/index.php?title=Space:DNA_Group_R-M269-9

That is all!

– Chris

First of all, to the Russian hackers who are trying to steal credit card numbers and spread malware by copying my blog, you can shove right off.

If you see information from my blog on any “.ru” domains, DO NOT CLICK ON THE LINKS. I see one page in Google results for “school-academic.net.ru”. These are bad faith, malicious actors. A shame we have to put up with such nonsense.

Further, please be aware that the content on this page is protected by the Digitial Millennium Copyright Act of 1998. Any and all attempts to pilfer any content of this blog, especially unique information derived from my own research, without expressed written permission from myself (wet ink, not electronic), will be met with a legal response and a DMCA takedown notice.

My use of these images from their various sources falls under Fair Use Doctrine and where applicable permission to use unique works has been granted by their creator.

Ok, to business.

I previously had a write up about Andrew Smith and Hannah Bracken and, after re-reading it, decided I needed to better document my findings.

My search for the father of my 4th great-grandfather, Isaac Smith who married Nancy Hendricks picks up in 1809 Woodford County, Kentucky.

This marriage record shows that Coonrod Hendricks, Isaac’s new father-in-law, was his bondsman for his marriage to Nancy, Coonrod’s daughter.

There is a second half to this document. I am finding it difficult to locate on Ancestry.com at the moment, but luckily I have a backup.

This affadavit is the first time we encounter Andrew Smith, the father of Isaac, Samuel, and probably Sally Smith.

Before we look at the next record, which is only supplementary in the discussion of Andrew, we need to understand who was among Coonrod Hendricks’ family. His wife was Julia Ann Rice, daughter of William Rice and Nancy Williams. They were from Caswell Co, NC.

The following note from a William Rice to Capt. John McKinney states that he approves of the marriage of Elizabeth Rice, his daughter, to a Samuel Smith.

We see that Peter Duncan was a witness to this affidavit. We also see a “Samuel Rice”. Isaac named one of his sons “Samuel Rice Smith”. This could have been an homage to his brother, could have been for this Samuel Rice. I do not know. Could be both.

So who was Peter Duncan? He was a neighbor to Isaac Smith.

The following shows how closely Peter Duncan lived to Isaac Smith and Nancy Hendricks, and their proximity to the family of KY Militia General and Sherriff of Rockcastle County, Kentucky (SRC) William Smith.

William’s son Col. Elisha Smith was an attorney in Mt. Vernon, Rockcastle Co, KY. He was hired by Henry Smith of 1810 Knox Co, KY (who married Elizabeth Ledford) to manage his Revolutionary War pension application. It is this DNA match to Henry Smith that allows us to narrow in our search for the origins of Andrew’s father, an old Robert Smith (b. c 1730) I will provide information on later in this article. Edit: I’m going to leave the DNA info up for refernce. Please be aware we are re-examining it.

Side note: Our search takes us to Brunswick and Greensville Co, VA near the families of Roger Smith m. Mary Davis whose son Eaids Smith had a daughter Mary who married Captain Andrew Jeter. Henry and his brothers enlisted under Andrew Jeter. Mary’s sister Olive Smith married Nathaniel Harrison, and their daughter Olive Harrison married Stephen Smith, son of Cuthbert Smith, brother of Josiah Smith, and they were sons of William Smith and Anne Isham. These families lived in Meherrin Parish on or near the Occoneechee Swamp and Fountains Creek c. 1735-1780. Additionally, unpublished research of mine autosomally links descendants of Josiah Smith m. Elizabeth Collier to descendants of a yDNA matched line in our group of Stephen Smith m. Nancy Rainwater. Given that Fountains Creek is where an old Nicholas Smith m. Elizabeth Flood lived, and the fact that we have an old Nicholas Smith (b. c. 1730) m. Polly Burke in our yDNA group, it is a strong possibility that my Smith group belongs to the Smith/Flood family. I’m still not completely clear about the papertrails, however.

Descendant of Isaac and Nancy have a very strong autosomal DNA connection to descendants of Henry. This was identified by comparing matches to descendants of John Madison Spurlock whose mother Elizabeth Smith was likely related to the Elizabeth Smith who married John Shelton, Jr in Grainger Co, TN.

Update: 31 Oct 2021 – While Henry did appear to know Col. Elisha Smith, a further in-depth examination of the paper records shows that the best we can say at this point is that Henry Smith lived up river at Poor Fork from William Spurlock on Martins Fork [RevWar pension app].

I will be making a new blog post about my examination of the family of John Shelton, Jr. who was associated with the family of John Spurlock who married Sarah Ann Mason. John Shelton, Jr married an Elizabeth Smith on 19 March 1800 in Grainger, Co, TN. Based upon further autosomal analysis, It appears that the two Elizabeth Smiths in the story were likely related, and the families intermarried.

There is also some information I want to cover regarding Jonathan Smith of Poor Fork.

While the connection to Henry is now less immediate, I still believe we have identified old Robert Smith of St. Mathew’s Parish, Orange Co, NC in the Meherrin Parish area in Brunswick Co, VA.

Based on land transaction records, William would have lived in the area known as Roundstone Fork and Skagg’s Creek along the Rockcastle River in Rockcastle Co, KY. I have those records elsewhere on my blog.

There is a bit to unpack here.

The Moses McClure is listed as 26-44 years old. This puts his birthyear at around 1766-1784. This is likely the brother of Halbert McClure who purchased the Buckner grant in 1833. We find that William’s son Thomas J. Smith, a Deputy Sherriff of the county, conveyed the claim of 10,000 acres of land lying in the county of Rockcastle on the waters of Rockcastle River, purchased for $15, to Holbert McClure. Sounds like a good deal.

It is because of this information, and other items I will later discuss, have I speculated that Buckner Smith belongs to our Smith group, but that’s for another posting.

The Phillip and Middleton Singleton who were neighbors to Isaac Smith were related to William’s first wife, Elizabeth Singleton, daughter of Col. Richard Singleton of the Battle of Kings Mountain and his first wife Anne Whitesides. This family name, Whitesides, will become more relevant later on.

We see Peter Duncan living near Hethey or Hetty Hall. She is highlighted because she is mentioned in some of the land transactions with William as well. These can be found on my other pages pertaining to Rockcastle County.

Ok, getting back on track here…

This image is of a marriage index for 1809 Woodford Co, KY. The fourth line is Samuel and Elizabeth. At the bottom on the last line we see a “John McMinnimy” who married a Sally Smith. This was likely John C. McMinnimy, son of Ensign John McMinnimy of the Caswell County Regiment (Col. William Moore).

With the previously presented information, I am now able to show you how we can locate Andrew Smith before 1809.

Among the Orange County, North Carolina records, we find references to an Ensign John McMinnimy who served in the Caswell County Regiment.

ODB 8/241 Thomas Mullhollan to Thomas Bird, 25 Dec 1795, 364 acres on waters of Back Creek, adj Jacob Huggins, Andrew Smith, Walker, Samuel Whltsell, McMinimy, John Reeves.

I would like to thank Mark Chilton for writing the AMAZING book “The Land Grant Atlas of Old Orange County – Volume II – Saxapahaw Old Fields“. The following cropped image was taken from it’s pages, with permission. Buy a copy. No, seriously. Do it.

I have found other researchers that show the Whitsett family is the same as the Whitesides family.

June 10, 1799: Samuel Whittsides (sic); warrant issued, entered [recorded] March 1794, Book no. 101, pg. 284; 190 acres on Back Creek adjacent John McMinnemy, Richard Cope, George Boyd, William Bradford and Samuel’s own line. Deed states land was adjacent John Reeves, Boyd, Bradford, McMinnemy, Thos. Linch’s corner, Boyd’s corner. (Entry 2392, Grant 1517, and Deed Book 10, pg. 42)

With these land records, we can demonstrates there was a Whitesides and a McMinnimy family in the immediate vicinity of an Andrew Smith.

These men, William Smith, Andrew Smith, and John Smith, were sons of old Robert Smith of St. Mathew’s Parish. Their brother Robert Smith (Jr or II?) married Elizabeth C. McMunn.

I believe, based upon a name on old Robert Smith’s will, we can link him to a Joseph and Neil McCafferty, and he was related to the Holbert McClure previously discussed in the Rockcastle Co, KY records. This is a very obscure and poorly documented relationship, however. Please verify it yourself.

Additional supporting information for this being the correct Andrew Smith is the fact that the yDNA matched Smith line of Bennett Smith of McNairy Co, TN has on his estate record a J.F. Jopling. This was James Francis Jopling, son of John Sutton Jopling. John was a son of Daniel Jopling. Daniel Jopling had a brother, William Jopling. William had a daughter Catherine Jopling who married a… Thomas Smith. Thomas and Catherine were wed in 1814 in Caswell County, North Carolina. I believe Thomas served under Ensign John McMinnimy along with Jeptha Rice.

On the marriage record of Thomas Smith and Catherine Jopling were bondsman John Fitch and witness Alexander Murphey.

John Fitch was a son of Thomas Rosewell Fitch who married a “Sarah Elizabeth Bird”. I put her name in quotes because she appears to be referred to as both Sarah and Elizabeth depending on which family tree you examine. The Fitches lived off to the west of Andrew and his brothers.

Sarah Bird was a daughter of James Bird who had a son Empson Bird. It is my belief that James Bird was a descendant of an older Thomas Bird who married a Sarah Empson, a daughter of a Charles Empson. The Robert Bird living next to Andrew Smith was related to the family of Empson Bird.

Additionally, we have a 67/67 yDNA match with the line of William Smith m. Mary Powell. His family is documented as having lived in Caswell Co (previously Orange Co), NC on Hogan’s Creek before they moved to Georgia. William’s parents were Nicholas Smith m. Polly Burke.

I believe I have set out very clear connections between Isaac Smith of 1809 Woodford Co, KY and Andrew Smith of 1770-1780’s Orange Co, NC.

Speculation currently leads to the hypothesis that Isaac’s mother was Hanna Bracken, but this has not been proven.

-Chris

In the spirit of accuracy, I will be taking down some of my earliest pages where I mused about the significance of some information I had happened across. I will redo the “Andrew Smith and Hannah Bracken” page as my understanding of the family groups is now much clearer.

I think I will eventually make a sort of table of contents with explanations. It’s time to tidy up this notebook of mine.

-Chris